Hi guys! so i have a question, back in the 2016 days i remember i had no issue assigning hair bones, but nowadays, for some reason, all hair bones EXCEPT "c_hair" keep coiling up on itself. does anyone know why this happens? in this picture, the bottom portion on the back of the sim the hair is assigned to "b_hair" and in the front, the bottom portion is assigned to "f_hair" but as you can see it just coils up in on itself

Most likely it's either
1: Bone weights don't add up to 100%
2: is also assigned to a bone it shouldn't be assigned to
3: Long hair that goes past the shoulders usually need to be assigned to other bones, most likely Spine 2 and/or 1 depending on length. The hair bones mostly affect the top/sides of the hair. The hair bones are at the top of the head, so they have a limited reach. From the shoulders down, the body joints usually need to take over most of/all of the hair animation, especially if the mesh is close to the body (a loose ponytail would be slightly different). If the lowest parts of the hair are just assigned to the hair bones, you'll get some weird issues.

Are you using Milkshape or Blender?

1 and 2 are defo not the reason. about number 3, yeah im well aware about spine 2 and all, im pretty good at making smooth movement, but still it coils up on itself and its not just the length, because in short bobs or even around the center (neck area of a long hair mesh) i can still animate it fine with c_hair (in the picture above, most of the hair around the neck is assigned to c_hair). also using c_hair on the lower ends of long hair doesnt give an issue, so im 100% sure its exclusively a b/f/l/r/ bone issue. im using milkshape, i wonder if it has anything to do with that.. some update between here and 2016 maybe...

Have you checked the individual vertices in the "broken" parts?

Depending on how you assign the hair (manually or via auto tools), the auto tools can sometimes add in bones they're not supposed to.

Also make sure you have "Draw backfaces" on in the meshing windows, or you can end up with items not selecting properly. Since there are two overlapping layers in a lot of hairs, they can end up with differently assigned joints (or no assigning). Milkshape warns if there are vertices without assignments.

One thing I often do is to check the animation in Milkshape by activating the ANIM mode (make sure to save the file first, as this approach can cause some borkage), and then rotate the joints to see if each mesh part is behaving properly. If anything is misbehaving it's much easier to fix it in Milkshape first, instead of going in and out of the game (you need to reopen the file, or have two open windows - one for the workfile and one to check animations using a copy of the file)

indeed i do have draw backfaces on. i havent done the "broken" parts you mention, could you explain what o where that is? in any case, if it were broken, wouldnt the whole mesh be an issue? cuz when i assign it only with c_hair it works in game, its only when i try to use another one of the hair bones

In Milkshape, you mark a single vertex, go to the Joints tab, and click "Show". This shows which bones (joints) the vertex is assigned to in the 1-4 joint assignment areas (dropdown boxes with colored lines below). You're likely familiar with this already?

If you tick the "Draw vertex weights" box and click a bone from the list, you'll see which vertices have some weights from that bone, along with the rough color gradient seen in the joint selection. Green = low percentage, red=high.

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Parts with properly assigned bones would be fine, while parts with vertices that aren't weighted right would act like flyaway parts of the hair, bend in weird ways, or otherwise misbehave (pretty much like the picture).

Not sure about all meshes, but most of the maxis hairs that use the animated bones tend to not be 100% weighted to those bones, using maybe around 30-40% at the most. Anything close to the head tends to be asssigned mostly to the head bone. The hair bones usually don't need a high percentage for there to be bounce in the hair (too high, and there's too much bounce).

indeed i am aware yes
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right, i appreciate your help, but it feels like we're hitting a dead end in the communication.. im well aware on how to get properly behaving meshes and smooth joints, ive expeimented with many percentages. the bottom line here is that there is a before vs after with the hair joints that arent c_hair and i dont know why. the other bottom line is that all hair bones except c_hair arent behaving normally, and it doesnt have to do with the percentage nor the height at which the joints are being assigned (in a short bob it still meses up the mesh). so why is c_hair behaving as intended but the other bones all cause this issue where before it didnt happen?

for example, this is a mesh i made waay back in 2016, and i remember doing the same process of assigning the back portion to b_hair and the front portion to f_hair, and it doesnt mess the mesh up! sadly i lost this mesh when i formatted my computer so i cant retrieve it to analize it, but im possitive the hair joints (other than c_hair) were behaving correctly
https://modthesims.info/showthread.php?t=580384

Just adding in a tutorial by PF: https://pforestsims.tumblr.com/post...mation-ts2-hair

They say the C_hair joint is best to not use, unless you're making a mohawk or similar (animated hair on top of the head). They also show how to weight the joints.

Found one for Blender, too: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wL2v7MjaM3M

nice tutorial appreciate it, however its what I already do and doesn't explain the issue I'm having, f/b/l/r hair works fine for them

Can you upload the mesh file, maybe?

Which Milkshape version are you using, and have you made sure to check if you have the most updated plugins?
I think (but I'm not sure) these are the most recent ones - check if the dates are the same in your version:
https://modthesims.info/t/122399

There's also a chance the base mesh you're working with has something iffy going on with the bones (or somewhere else in the resources) - have you tried using a different base mesh?

im using milkshape 1.8.5. when i downloaded it, i went to that same link you provided and put those folder where it belongs, but it gave me a "these files are already here" message. i assumed that it just came with milkshape 1.8.5 lol.
the mesh im using is this on: https://www.tumblr.com/butterflysim...9205760/brielle

i can send you the edited version of the hair i made, although i dont where i could send/upload it to

There's an attachment option if you click "Go advanced", or if you use "reply", under "additional options". A zip/rar archive file would work.

Are you editing the mesh you linked to?

indeed i am

ok here's the hair with my edit.

yes i know the c_hair percentage is very high but i tested it in game and quite frankly i love the physics it brings

I still think it's the C_hair that's causing trouble, plus the spread of the bone assignments, since there's a thin line assigned heavily to the C_hair bone.

Playtested it a bit, and it seems there's only a smaller part in the back where the bounce is visible, but very much so, causing various animation issues (clipping, jagged parts, stretching weird), probably related to not smooth enough assignments. It also seems to rise up a bit over the head if you compare it to the original non-animated version (if you didn't do this, it's likely the C_hair causing it). Tried to get some good pics of what I mean, but it's easier to see in action if you put it on a sim and have them do various animations that stretches the head/hair/body in various positions. If you're just viewing the hair in CAS it doesn't give you the full picture.

Couldn't see the spesific issue with the lower bit curling in, but that was related to the other hair bones?

the c_hair is behaving as i want to to, i like it very animated, so its not the problem. yes, the issue and reason i created this thread is because the OTHER hair bones curl it in and make it look weird

Do you have an example mesh where you've used the other bones? A bit difficult to see what the issue is/where it's coming from if the example mesh doesn't have those issues.

ok, im glad to say i finally discovered the issue!
for some reason c_hair works on all hairs yes
but to get the other hair bones working, you need to do this
1. find out what the ORIGINAL maxis mesh the custom mesh is based on
2. on the joints tab in milkshape after importing the ORIGINAL mesh, click "comments" for each hair bone you're interested in. COPY that info and REPLACE it in the "comments" section of the CUSTOM hair you're interested in once imported into another milkshape

thats it, that gets all the other hair bones working.
not gonna lie though, after some testing, c_hair is actually pretty much the best option, it moves nicer in my opinion. i thought r and l hair would be nice for a ponytail swinging side to side, but even in high values its not really that noticeable and just adds a subtle sway in all directions lol